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JUSTEATREALFOOD's Photo JUSTEATREALFOOD Posts: 3,031
9/8/17 4:57 P

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Becky - The article is an improvement from the old one for sure. And the comments aren't turned off!! emoticon

JERF - Just Eat Real Food

I'm not a doctor or dietitian. I'm just a real whole foods nutrition nerd.

I eat mostly vegetables, fats, meats, some fruit and dark chocolate. Unprocessed and preservative free food. And it's changed my life!

5'4"
Maintaining since 2012
42 years old
2 kids

Lowering my A1C and keeping my blood sugar levels steady eating LCHF.


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DIETITIANBECKY Posts: 28,261
9/8/17 4:05 P

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Naypooie--
You are correct----at present time you will not be receiving a SP article written by me, sharing the health benefits of long-term usage of a ketogenic diet. I emphasize "long-term" usage.

Here is just 1 example why I do not believe that we have enough research regarding "long term" usage of a ketogenic diet for overall health promotion. Especially to make it a general statement for all adults. Especially on a web-site when there is no one-to-one assessment/education/follow up/lab work,--- by a physician or dietitian.

https://consumer.healthday.com/cancer-information-5/colon-cancer-news-96/here-s-the-recipe-to-keep-colon-cancer-at-bay-726304.html


Yes, there is research evidence for long term usage of eating plans such as:
The DASH Diet
Choose My Plate
Mediterranean Diet/Anti-inflammatory Diet
Vegetarian/Vegan/Plant based Diets

I agree with you that every eating plan can be done in a healthy fashion and an unhealthy fashion. Many of the eating plans I listed also contain recommendations to limit those unhealthy food choices. However, a healthier version of a ketogenic diet still lacks long term research.

Becky


Edited by: DIETITIANBECKY at: 9/8/2017 (16:16)
DIETITIANBECKY Posts: 28,261
9/8/17 3:42 P

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JERF--
Yes that is the new article.
If you follow the SMART carb minimal amounts---you will see it adds up to about 100 grams for the day. You could make adjustments as needed.

Becky
Your SP Registered Dietitian Nutritionist

NAYPOOIE's Photo NAYPOOIE Posts: 14,511
9/8/17 12:51 P

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slimmerkiwi, it may be true that the new article will actually present the pros as well as the cons. History says it won't, but things can change. And her post was just such an example.

Did you actually read my comments? I think all my points were valid, as were the questions I asked.

Rusty made a good point that any diet can be done badly. Most of the cons listed were a case of doing it badly, and could be applied to any other diet in the world. If you don't eat a variety of veggies, you could miss key nutrients. If you eat excessively of protein, you might get gout. But it's not a keto thing. It's an every diet thing.



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JUSTEATREALFOOD's Photo JUSTEATREALFOOD Posts: 3,031
9/8/17 8:34 A

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Becky, Is this the updated article you're referring to?

www.sparkpeople.com/resource/nutrition_art
icles.asp?ID=590




Edited by: JUSTEATREALFOOD at: 9/8/2017 (16:31)
JERF - Just Eat Real Food

I'm not a doctor or dietitian. I'm just a real whole foods nutrition nerd.

I eat mostly vegetables, fats, meats, some fruit and dark chocolate. Unprocessed and preservative free food. And it's changed my life!

5'4"
Maintaining since 2012
42 years old
2 kids

Lowering my A1C and keeping my blood sugar levels steady eating LCHF.


 current weight: 130.0 
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SLIMMERKIWI's Photo SLIMMERKIWI SparkPoints: (317,129)
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9/8/17 12:28 A



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NAYPOOIE

I must respectfully say that I don't see AT ALL how Becky is putting an unbalanced view out there. There have been cautions many times, and not just by our Dietitian Becky, but by many well qualified people with Doctorates in Nutrition, Biochemistry etc. that there is good reason to believe that a very low keto diet CAN cause these problems, and that people would be more likely to be afflicted with them than following a middle of the road approach. This is WHY middle of the road approach is advised, because those fully qualified don't really know enough to advise a person to do it. When a medical professional advises it it is because they have certain conditions and the risk associated with the 2 types of diet may be the lessor of two evils.

A lot of unqualified people advise 'do this' or 'do that' simply because they are doing it and don't see any problems. It doesn't mean to say that there AREN'T problems - it is just that you don't see them, or they will possibly appear further down the road.

I really think that jumping the gun isn't being helpful. Let Becky write her articles based on peer-reviewed studies, and then if you have an concerns, you have the right to voice them, but I hope that you try to voice them in a less confrontational manor.

Kris

Edited by: SLIMMERKIWI at: 9/8/2017 (00:30)
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I am not a Dr - please check with your qualified Health Professional for a diagnosis and treatment plan


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NAYPOOIE's Photo NAYPOOIE Posts: 14,511
9/7/17 9:18 P

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emoticon Rusty, you're a peace maker. Blessed be.

Becky, I know it seems like I want to beat you up, but the fact is (made clear over many years) you don't approve of low carb or keto diets, and shows in your writings. For example, the protein/gout thing. What you said is true, but what was implied was that keto causes gout, which is not the case. And sometimes it's utterly misleading, like the comment that lack of "healthy carbs" increases the risk of high blood pressure, heart disease, diabetes. Kicking those "healthy carbs" (along with the unhealthy ones) to the curb has brought many a case of type 2 diabetes under control.

Someone who reads what you write would assume (at best) that these diets are more trouble than they're worth, and may well conclude that they will kill you outright. So I put a different focus out there. For balance. Sorry if it hurts, but I know that these diets can help a lot of people, and I hate to see them turned away by negativity.



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DIETITIANBECKY Posts: 28,261
9/7/17 8:17 P

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Dear Rusty-Woods--
You stated...."I simply do not see the point in me asking about the nutritional concerns one might have on a keto diet, and then when she responds, every word gets torn apart. These are concerns, and she isn't saying they can't be remedied. At least wait until she releases the article, and attack that, if you think it is unfair."

Thank you for your kind words of support and understanding regarding my quick post regarding "possible concerns of long term usage" of a ketogenic diet. I especially appreciated your post after receiving the 5 thrashings from Napooie in the 5 previous posts (ouch those hurt).

I do plan to present the pro-cons of a ketogenic diet in the article I am currently researching and writing. I will emphasize the concerns, so that members can have discussions with their doctor/dietitian and use foods to lessen these concerns as much as possible. The member can use our SP Food Tracker to see if adequate nutrients are being received. I will not be providing any type of nutrition assessment or specific nutrition recommendations, since that is out of the scope of practice on this type of internet site. This would need to be provided through medical nutrition therapy, a counseling session with a dietitian who can assess food intake, medical history/risks, lab data, etc

Becky
Your SP Registered Dietitian Nutritionist

RUSTY_WOODS Posts: 932
9/7/17 5:13 P

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As someone who has been encouraged to eat this way, with maybe a little more guidance from doctors, I am sitting here thinking how to counteract each of the arguments our dietitian has presented, but not simply to be confrontational, or to disprove her. I think we need to understand that she is speaking to ALL of SP, even on this one thread, so her answers will always be more cautionary, especially when talking about a WOE, not widely endorsed.. most people aren't doing keto. We should be happy she is pointing out areas of concern, and be looking to address them for ourselves.

She points out risks from limiting/eliminating certain " healthy carbs ", and that is a valid concern. I know I eat more fruit/veggie servings than I did on the SAD ( people follow it poorly ). I also realize I am not having fortified bread, and cereal, which is loaded with nutrients, since for most, they are staples of the SAD. We DO eliminate those foods, and the risk is that we do not replace all of those nutrients.

That is my #1 concern. I have been on LC for years, but even with variety of vegetables, and eating foods intentionally to get certain nutrients, at times, we fall into ruts.. eat the same veggies most days, stop eating fish, or cheese. Lack of variety can limit certain nutrients. I don't think it is outrageous to point this out as a valid concern.. that lack of nutrition could cause the health concerns she has listed.. not to say a poor SAD couldn't result in the same, but poor nutrition is poor nutrition, which can lead to health issues on ANY diet. On a restricted diet, we DO have to be more diligent. I agree that it isn't impossible, but it is more work.. I don't have a food which has 50% of 2 dozen nutrients like cereal that is fortified, so I have to have more variety.. possible, but a valid concern.

I have/had gout. When I first started LC, back when I was over 300 lbs. I cheated a lot. I loved going to my favorite restaurant, and having London broil, with mushroom gravy. Of course, with soup and dessert as well. I started having what i though was an ankle sprain, but after 3 months, I got tested.. Gout. They did tell me to drop protein, and I did, because gout is so painful, that you do whatever they say. I went on meds, and after a month, the flare-ups stopped. After 6 months, of not having these, I went back to LC.. eventually, I cheated again, and I could feel my toe starting to throb.. what I found out ( for me ), is that protein is not a problem.. sauces are.. mushrooms I can have, but mushroom gravy? No way. I also can't have grease from ground beef. For me, rich, greasy foods cause flare-ups.. I followed that plan, and a couple years ago, stopped taking Allopurinol( pill for gout ). Not a problem any more.

Since I have heart disease, and my doctors are OK with keto/LC, I don't think it is dangerous.. but I don't go out of my way to eat saturated fat. I have skinless chicken most days, with a little red meat tossed in, and eggs cooked in butter for breakfast, but I don't cook my meat in butter/ coconut oil/lard to up the fat content. If I use oil, it is olive oil. There are a lot of studies being done, which may suggest a lack of a link between sat. fat, and heart disease, but I simply do not care. I'm sure I get a little more sat. fat than an average person, as well as cholesterol.. but I don't do it intentionally. It is simply unavoidable eating this way. I am not afraid of saturated fats, but I'm not going to run around saying they are good for you.

Beneficial gut bacteria.. today, I am eating 13 g of carbs. I missed lunch. Yesterday, I had 38 g.. none of it dairy. I don't have issues with my gut, but if one is limiting certain foods, and they get some benefit from them, it could be an issue. As far as fiber.. I can have green beans which are 50% fiber.. but even if I have 50% fiber, and average 25g of carbs, I am at 13 g fiber. Half of what is recommended. I don't have regularity issues, but we all know some people who do. They take fiber supplements.

These are all concerns. Not saying that a keto diet can't be done in a healthy way, our dietitian is simply highlighting some of the concerns.. and while I personally have noted many of these issues, and addressed them, with some help from my medical team... not everyone has. The other 5 million members might read this post, and certainly the article she writes, so she has to write it for all of the people of SP.

Her job isn't to write an article supporting keto/LC. That is NEVER going to happen. I look forward to discussions on concerns of this way of eating.. as long as along with the concerns, she points out ways to address each concern, on a ketogenic diet.

For example, I have issues with getting enough Ca.. I can have 2 ozs. cheese, but it would be nice to know you can get Ca from other low carb foods like clams,sardines,rockfish, green beans, broccoli, almonds, and if OK.. figs.

Since we are already eating keto/LC, and not going to change our WOE, it doesn't really matter if the dietitian supports our WOE.. I don't need that from her, and don't expect it. Instead of this devolving into another fight, I am looking for some benefit, since we have a dietitian available to us.. a huge benefit. Dietitians are not cheap.

I simply do not see the point in me asking about the nutritional concerns one might have on a keto diet, and then when she responds, every word gets torn apart. These are concerns, and she isn't saying they can't be remedied. At least wait until she releases the article, and attack that, if you think it is unfair.

Thanks for the response Becky Hand, and I do look forward to the article. Hopefully, it will lead to those choosing keto, to do it in as healthy a manner as possible.

Edited by: RUSTY_WOODS at: 9/7/2017 (17:15)

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NAYPOOIE's Photo NAYPOOIE Posts: 14,511
9/7/17 1:14 P

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"--Beneficial gut bacteria (probiotics) feed off of certain types of fiber. A very low-carb diet, lacking in fiber, could decrease the good bacteria in your gut."

Again, look at the vegetable list. I don't know the fiber content of them, but I imagine it's fairly high.

And if it isn't, is there a supplement that will fill the need?



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NAYPOOIE's Photo NAYPOOIE Posts: 14,511
9/7/17 1:08 P

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"--The risk of heart disease is increased on a very low-carb diet that is extremely high in saturated fat."

People who eat lots of sat fat AND carbs tend to be at higher risk. Low carb, not so much. Or do you have a long-term clinical study demonstrating this?



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NAYPOOIE's Photo NAYPOOIE Posts: 14,511
9/7/17 1:05 P

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"--Protein foods are also high in purines, which are broken down into uric acid. An excessively high intake of protein-rich foods can elevate levels of uric acid in the blood (for some people) which can lead to needle-like uric acid crystals in joints which causes gout."

This is no more an issue for keto eaters than anyone else getting adequate protein. It is a myth that keto is a primarily protein diet. People try to do it that way because they've been told for years that eating fat will kill you, and never actually read how the diet should work (which requires eating fat). They eliminate carbs and fat, and all that's left is protein. So they eat too much protein.



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NAYPOOIE's Photo NAYPOOIE Posts: 14,511
9/7/17 12:58 P

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"--The risk of having high blood pressure, heart disease, diabetes, osteoporosis, and certain types of cancer increases when these "healthy carbs" are eliminated. "

I know for a fact that most people who go keto improve their blood pressure, blood sugar, and the markers that supposedly indicate higher risk for for heart disease. As for the osteoporosis and cancer risks, are you saying that potatoes, rice, wheat, and the like, prevent these diseases? I have never heard that.



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NAYPOOIE's Photo NAYPOOIE Posts: 14,511
9/7/17 12:48 P

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OK, Atkins Induction is keto. You eat a lot of vegetables on Induction. The following is a suggested list of non-starchy vegetables. The number at the end is the net carbs for that serving. Induction allows up to 20 net carbs.

Please tell us what nutrients can not be adequately provided by 20 NC of these veggies. And can we get them in a supplement?

Alfalfa Sprouts, 1 cup/raw, 0.4
Argula, ½ cup/raw, 0.2
Bok Choy, 1 cup/raw, 0.8
Celery, 1 stalk, 0.8
Chicory Greens, ½ cup/raw, 0.6
Chives, 1 tbs, 0.1
Cucumber, ½ cup, 1.0
Daikon, ½ cup, 1.0
Endive, ½ cup, 0.0
Escarole, ½ cup, 0.0
Fennel, 1 cup, 3.6
Jicama, ½ cup, 2.5
Lettuce Iceberg, ½ cup, 0.1
Mushrooms ½ cup, 1.2
Parsley, 1 tbs, 0.1
Peppers, ½ cup/raw, 2.3
Radicchio, ½ cup/raw, 0.7
Radishes, 10/raw, 0.9
Romaine Lettuce, ½ cup, 0.2
Artichoke, ¼ of medium/boiled, 4.0
Artichoke Hearts, 1/in water, 1.0
Asparagus, 6 spears/boiled, 2.4
Avocado, 1 whole/raw, 3.5
Bamboo Shoots, 1 cup/boiled, 1.1
Beets, ½ cup/canned, 4.7
Broccoli, ½ cup/boiled, 1.6
Broccoli, ½ cup/raw, 1.0
Broccoli rabe, 1 ounce, 1.3
Broccoflower, ½ cup, 1.4
Brussels Sprouts, ¼ cup boiled, 2.4
Cabbage, ½ cup/boiled or raw, 2.0
Cauliflower, ½ cup/boiled or raw, 1.0
Chard, ½ cup Swiss/boiled, 1.8
Collard Greens, ½ cup/boiled, 4.2
Eggplant, ½ cup boiled/raw, 1.8
Hearts of Palm, 1 heart, 0.7
Kale, ½ cup, 2.4
Kohlrabi, ½ cup, 4.6
Leeks, ¼ cup/boiled, 1.7
Okra, ½ cup/boiled or raw, 2.4
Olives, green, 5, 2.5
Olives, black, 5, 0.7
Onion, ¼ cup/raw, 2.8
Pumpkin, ¼, cup/boiled, 2.4
Rhubarb, ½ cup, unsweetened, 1.7
Sauerkraut, ½ cup canned/drained, 1.2
Peas, ½ cup edible podded, 3.4
Spaghetti Squash, ½ cup/boiled, 2.0
Spinach, ½ cup/raw, 0.2
Summer Squash, ½ cup/boiled, 2.0
Tomato, 1 raw, 4.3
Turnips, ½ cup/boiled, 2.2
Water Chestnuts, ½ cup/canned, 6.9
Zucchini, ½ cup sautéed, 2.0





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DIETITIANBECKY Posts: 28,261
9/7/17 9:15 A

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The information you requested (100 gram carb diet) will be in our "updated" article: The Truth about Carbohydrates---which will be on the site in the very near future.

Becky
Your SP Registered Dietitian Nutritionist

JUSTEATREALFOOD's Photo JUSTEATREALFOOD Posts: 3,031
9/7/17 7:28 A

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I am thrilled to hear you are writing that article Becky.

I wish you would write an article a healthy way to eat a low carb diet (around 100g/day).

JERF - Just Eat Real Food

I'm not a doctor or dietitian. I'm just a real whole foods nutrition nerd.

I eat mostly vegetables, fats, meats, some fruit and dark chocolate. Unprocessed and preservative free food. And it's changed my life!

5'4"
Maintaining since 2012
42 years old
2 kids

Lowering my A1C and keeping my blood sugar levels steady eating LCHF.


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DIETITIANBECKY Posts: 28,261
9/7/17 7:13 A

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Interesting that you should bring up the topic of having the SP dietitian provide the pros-cons of a ketogenic diet. I'm working on that article right now. Evaluating research. Putting together tips on usage, safety, questions to discuss with your doctor, etc.

Here are just a few items I've pulled together. Of course the article will be much more extensive.

We know what happens when you use the ketogenic diet short term. You lose weight, your metabolic markers improve (cholesterol, blood sugar, inflammation, etc). It is basically "the same" as any other weight loss approach.

There are not a lot of research studies with the focus on long-term usage (studies having subjects using the diet for many years). Some of the possible concerns that one should evaluate:
--Restricting nutrient-rich carbohydrate foods also restricts essential vitamins, minerals, fiber, and antioxidants found in fruits, vegetables, legumes, milk, and whole grains. (things like calcium, potassium, folic acid, magnesium, thiamin, riboflavin, selenium, etc)
--The risk of having high blood pressure, heart disease, diabetes, osteoporosis, and certain types of cancer increases when these "healthy carbs" are eliminated.
--Protein foods are also high in purines, which are broken down into uric acid. An excessively high intake of protein-rich foods can elevate levels of uric acid in the blood (for some people) which can lead to needle-like uric acid crystals in joints which causes gout.
--The risk of heart disease is increased on a very low-carb diet that is extremely high in saturated fat.
--Beneficial gut bacteria (probiotics) feed off of certain types of fiber. A very low-carb diet, lacking in fiber, could decrease the good bacteria in your gut.

When only focusing on the “number of carbs” contained in a food, it becomes easier to lose sight of the overall nutritional quality of the food as well as the total calorie intake.
--If calorie intake exceeds calorie expenditure—weight loss will stop.
--It is still important to limit processed meats and highly saturated fat sources, such as fatty meats and cheeses, bacon, sausage, hot dogs, pepperoni, salami, deli meats, pork rinds, jerky, sour cream, cream, butter, lard, coconut oil, palm oil, chicken fat, and duck fat.
--To improve the nutrient profile of any low carb eating plan be sure to select lean meats and protein sources, limit processed meats, use healthy fat sources from nuts, peanuts, avocados, and oils that are liquid at room temperature (examples: olive oil, canola oil, soybean oil, corn oil, safflower oil, and sunflower oil).


Other ideas:
---A very low carb, ketogenic eating plan may be appropriate for someone who carries numerous medical risk factors and needs to lose a large amount of weight as quickly as possible. If you have been directed to do this, work with a Registered Dietitian Nutritionist who has experience with this type of weight loss plan.
--A very low carb, ketogenic eating plan is not appropriate for someone who is looking to lose those last 10 pounds, break through a plateau, or just a quick fix for a high school reunion.

Talk to your doctor about:
How long am I able to safely use the diet?
When and how do I transition my diet to include more carb containing foods?
Does the eating plan fit with my cultural, food preference, and food budget needs?
Ask yourself: Is this an eating plan I can follow for the rest of my life?


Becky
Your SP Registered Dietitian Nutritionist








NAYPOOIE's Photo NAYPOOIE Posts: 14,511
9/6/17 12:34 P

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Rusty, the thought that the dietician should be giving advice on how to do keto safely never occurred to me. Too much rancor, I guess.



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9/6/17 7:48 A

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The basis for any diet to cause weight loss is the amount of calorie deficit inherent in the diet plan. No matter which diet plan you follow, it won't work till an accurate amount of calorie deficit is created.

If you are not able to meet your weekly milestones, do not feel discouraged. Keep in mind that the calorie information on many packaged food items is not accurate. They can underestimate or overestimate the calories by up to 25% in some cases. So, have patience and work together towards your weight loss goal. You may simply have to adjust your calorie allotment based on your lifestyle.

RUSTY_WOODS Posts: 932
9/6/17 5:30 A

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Since I am below 40 g a day for carbs, I guess I am doing keto. Most days I am around 25.

I am doing well on it, and have been doing it for some time now.. log enough that I can't remember when I started it. Obviously, the rapid weight loss at the start, slowed. I don't find one diet to be superior for weight loss, but where it matters is the ability to stick to the diet.

Over the time I have done keto, I have had no health issues from it.. in fact my cardiologists from Henry Ford, support me eating keto. They let me eat it in the hospital.

The issue I want to speak about is restriction, and the lack of nutrition it may cause. I compare keto to vegetarian.. you are limiting some source of food. I find vegan much stricter, eliminating a food group entirely.

Still, any time you limit a category of food, you have work to do, to avoid health issues. As we know, there are ESSENTIAL fats, and proteins, but not any ESSENTIAL carbohydrates.. you don't need them.. but they do provide a lot of nutrition, and can be tasty, which is why we still eat veggies, right? Maybe some berries?

Most of the nutrition you lose by cutting carbs, can be replaced with keto foods, but you have to have variety, and be diligent, Certain nutrients absorb at different rates, when consumed with other nutrients, so you may not need as much following one diet, over another, deficient in the second nutrient. There are things to consider.

On a vegan diet, you can't get B12 without supplementation.. I found Calcium to be hard to get on keto. I limit cheese, so I am routinely low. Something I need to address. I can eat eggs, cheese, green leafy veggies, or trout/sardines, but it isn't something I get easily, like Iron.

We are focused on which diet is better, how great our diet is, or what foods we have to eat to stay healthy.. but in the end, it comes down to vitamins/minerals.

I know our dietitian is not a fan of keto, but I would like to ask, which nutrients she thinks those of us who are following it, should be watching the closest, so we do stay healthy.

It is fine to say a WOE isn't healthy, but since a bunch of people are going to follow keto, it might be helpful to talk about which nutrients you get MORE of on keto, which stay about the same, which you have to keep an eye on, and those which I might need to supplement with ( unable to get with keto foods ).

I am following this WOE so that I can reach a weight where I can have my heart valve changed, so I see some improvements with my A-fib, and feel better. The goal is to have a successful surgery, and live on.. so I don't really care about the fight over keto is great, or bad.. all I care about is that i have to follow this WOE, and I want to do it as healthy as I can.

Anyone interested in discussing the nutrition aspect, and how to address it?



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NAYPOOIE's Photo NAYPOOIE Posts: 14,511
9/5/17 7:23 P

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Auna_Cycle, I guarantee you that the pre-contact Inuit were not eating 37% of their calories as carbohydrate, nor would anyone call such a diet "keto". The studies cited in the article were from the 1970's or later, and the article even noted that the Inuits had been eating a lot of bread and sugar.

Did you read the entire thread?



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JUSTEATREALFOOD's Photo JUSTEATREALFOOD Posts: 3,031
9/2/17 8:49 A

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That's cool Kris I just hate it when studies have many moving parts and single out one to blame.

Morning sickness must be awful, I was extremely nauseous all the time when I was pregnant but never actually threw up. Often all I could stomach was dry toast and bananas.

To be clear, I am not defending a ketogenic diet. I don't eat a ketogenic diet. I just don't want poorly interpreted studies determining how people eat.

I do eat an unprocessed whole foods diet that is high in vegetables, whole food fats (avocado, olive oil, nuts, butter, heavy cream, coconut milk and oil) and meats. It is higher in fat and lower in carbs than the standard recommendation but it keeps my blood sugars stable and my energy levels up.

------------------

I found this study:

Evidence for the Adverse Effect of Starvation on Bone Quality: A Review of the Literature

"Prospective animal studies most commonly performed in a rat model have shed great light on the effect of energy restriction and starvation on fetal bone development in utero, associated hormones and consequences for the adult animal. Hermanussen et al. demonstrated that stunted growth of long bones in both intact and GH-deficient rats induced by starvation was not repairable through a reinitiating of feeding as the growth spurts responsible for growth simply ceased during starvation and did not increase once feeding was commenced.

Cooper et al. found that low birth and infant weight as well as diminished growth rates correlate with both a decreased bone mineral content and an increased risk of hip fractures in later life. Bone mineral content of the spine was found to correlate with infant weight at one year in both women and men. Low childhood growth rates, particularly with regards to height, were closely correlated with an increased hazard ratio for hip fracture. Furthermore, low birth and infant weight have been associated with decreased Growth Hormone and Cortisol levels in the adult-factors usually protective of bone health through the inhibition of bone demineralization. Neonatal bone mass has been determined to be independently predicted by the maternal food intake at 18 weeks of gestation.

Overall, all studies examining the connection between starvation and the bone metabolism in laboratory animal models and humans found evidence of either developmental delays, stunted bone growth, decreased bone mineral density or decreased cortical strength. Given the importance of good bone health to the mobility and function of every human being, public health research investigating the prevention of starvation as well as research focusing on the optimization of therapeutic options for those who have endured periods of famine is in order."

www.hindawi.com/journals/ije/2015/628740/

JERF - Just Eat Real Food

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@JUSTEATREALFOOD - I just said it 'reminded me of' that article.

I guess a lot of pregnant women are undernourished (but not intentionally.) I know I was because I was continuously upchucking and couldn't stomach most foods. My main source of nutrition (because that was mostly what I could keep down) was ham, bananas and a cup of tea. Each pregnancy I dropped 21lb in the first few weeks alone.

www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-07500-5


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JUSTEATREALFOOD's Photo JUSTEATREALFOOD Posts: 3,031
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Kris - The rats were undernourished during pregnancy then fed a high fat diet.

How can they possibly blame the high fat diet for the bad bone health and not the purposeful undernourishment during fetal development?


I wish they had a link to the actual study.



Edited by: JUSTEATREALFOOD at: 9/1/2017 (08:29)
JERF - Just Eat Real Food

I'm not a doctor or dietitian. I'm just a real whole foods nutrition nerd.

I eat mostly vegetables, fats, meats, some fruit and dark chocolate. Unprocessed and preservative free food. And it's changed my life!

5'4"
Maintaining since 2012
42 years old
2 kids

Lowering my A1C and keeping my blood sugar levels steady eating LCHF.


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@AUNA_CYCLE - I was interested in that article - it reminded me of this article I read in the New Zealand Herald yesterday.
www.nzherald.co.nz/health/news/article.cfm
?c_id=204&objectid=11913900


Kris

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DIETITIANBECKY Posts: 28,261
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This is why you lost 6 pounds the first week and none the second...
Carbohydrate is stored in your body as a substance called glycogen, which is found in your muscles and liver. Each gram of stored glycogen, is accompanied by 2 grams of water. When you restrict carbs, glycogen levels are depleted, and you rapidly lose a lot of water weight via urination. You become somewhat dehydrated.

So you probably lost about 2 pounds of fat the first week; and 4 pounds of water.
Then during week 2, you lost a little more fat and started to rehydrate your body.
So now you are probably about 4 pounds down in body fat, and 2 pounds down in water.

Actual body fat lost on a ketogenic diet is very similar to other dieting approaches.

Becky
Your SP Registered Dietitian Nutritionist


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The Inuit's genetic makeup is different than most people. They have adapted to a harsh Northern environment over many centuries.

It may not be all to be believed in the first place. This article says otherwise:
nutritionstudies.org/masai-and-inuit-high-
protein-diets-a-closer-look/


The article states that there is a high rate of heart disease among the Inuit and that their bones are very brittle, much earlier than other cultures, probably due to a very low calcium diet.

What might be more important to you, rather than focusing on what other groups may or may not be able to eat, is to think about what ethnic group you are from and what they have traditionally ate in designing a diet for you. This is especially important if you family suffers from a lot of allergies. Because you may have better luck eating the traditional foods of your ancestors.
www.metabolictypingdiet.com/_Chered.htm

Edited by: MILTONS_MAMA at: 8/31/2017 (13:40)
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Hello, everyone! I am not much of a help since I haven't started the keto diet yet, but it's just because I do not have all the information. Since we are all different, I suppose there is no universal rule when it comes to the amount of food we eat. So, is there any way of calculating how much calories should I consume during the day, when it comes to keto diet?

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Hi there,

I am new to Spark People. About 2 week back, I started the Keto diet. I weighed 170 lbs and wanted to go down to 135 lbs. After the 1st week, I lost 6 lbs, which was great. But at the end of week 2, my weight remained the same. I am a little disappointed as I was expecting at least a drop of 2 lbs.
I am careful about the diet and eat veggis, protein and fats (not too much though).
Anyone had similar experience which no weight loss. emoticon

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I had the same problem. Now I have only 2 ounces of meat at each meal. That helps

Yur lookin' good, eh! from Ottawa, Canada


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DARELYS Posts: 1
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Hello everyone I just started keto... I'm a lil lost but I got my macro, calories 1455, fats 124g, 20g carbs and 66g of protein. But I'm having problem with the protein 2nd day 2nd time I go over the 66g. Any suggestions? Thanks!

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Great idea!

Yur lookin' good, eh! from Ottawa, Canada


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CINDYV6 Posts: 1
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I make keto bread with psyllium fiber, that takes care of it.

Progress not perfection


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Glad to see an example of long term low carb/high fat - that is successful! How do you get sufficient fiber in your diet? I was thinking of adding psylium fiber and possibly ground flax to meals.

Yur lookin' good, eh! from Ottawa, Canada


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BERLIN_78 Posts: 12
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I was at my Dr.'s office just yesterday and she fully supported my decision to follow a ketogenic diet. I have been on thyroid meds for about fifteen years. I absolutely cannot lose weight any which way I've tried - hardcore exercise, intermittent fasting, no wine, counting calories you name it. My Dr. had no problem with the fact that I am hypothyroid and eating this way. Oh, and I feel amazing and have lost a couple lbs and it's only been four days. So there's that.



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I signed up and it states that I begin May 1st. Didn't realize you have to wait for a specific date.



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MIMIVAC's Photo MIMIVAC Posts: 15
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I've been eating low carb/high fat for 15 years, and it's the only way I have been able to lose and maintain weight loss. It keeps insulin numbers steady and is recommended especially for type 2 diabetes patients. As for the "average" person only lasting 3-5 days eating low carb, that hasn't been my experience. I know dozens of people who've been low carbing successfully for many years, with improved overall health and weight management as a result.

VHAYES04's Photo VHAYES04 Posts: 6,750
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I'm not doing the Keto diet but am drinking the mix. It has helped me.

Vickie


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No long term evidence of any harm from keto either. Just want to keep that thought up where people can see it, lest they assume that no data means bad things.



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I am doing complex carbs on a small scale (whole wheat pasta, brown rice, etc) and I am doing olive oil, avocados, nuts, etc. instead of butter and unhealthy fats. I haven't gained or lost anymore weight, but I'm going to see my doctor about doing this diet before I continue on with it.

Ginny Z

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JERF--
The link did work, thanks for sharing.
I believe this study is from 2004...so there is much more research evidence available now.
I think the study you shared only last 24 weeks. Not really long term when one is wanting safety evidence from subjects who are using the plan at least a year, and preferably longer.
I also found it interesting the the fat distribution was 20% saturated and 80% polyunsaturated. I found this to be a major difference when compared to some of the ketogenic eating plans used today which are filled with high fat meats, cheeses, butter, coconut oil, etc. Much higher in saturated fat.

I really think it comes down to medical monitoring while on a ketogenic plan to watch laboratory results and medical concerns; and working with a dietitian who can help plan a health-enhancing eating plan. Hopefully, this would also help lower the risk of insulin resistance, inflammation markers, muscle mass loss, etc.
Of course, this is all my "opinion" on where I see more research and follow up care needed with this type eating plan.

Becky
Your SP Registered Dietitian Nutritionist

Edited by: DIETITIANBECKY at: 4/21/2017 (08:12)
JUSTEATREALFOOD's Photo JUSTEATREALFOOD Posts: 3,031
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www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC27167
48/


Hopefully this one works. I can't edit my earlier one from my mobile.

JERF - Just Eat Real Food

I'm not a doctor or dietitian. I'm just a real whole foods nutrition nerd.

I eat mostly vegetables, fats, meats, some fruit and dark chocolate. Unprocessed and preservative free food. And it's changed my life!

5'4"
Maintaining since 2012
42 years old
2 kids

Lowering my A1C and keeping my blood sugar levels steady eating LCHF.


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can't load the link.



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JUSTEATREALFOOD's Photo JUSTEATREALFOOD Posts: 3,031
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2014 Study on humans

CONCLUSIONS:
The present study shows the beneficial effects of a long-term ketogenic diet. It significantly reduced the body weight and body mass index of the patients. Furthermore, it decreased the level of triglycerides, LDL cholesterol and blood glucose, and increased the level of HDL cholesterol. Administering a ketogenic diet for a relatively longer period of time did not produce any significant side effects in the patients. Therefore, the present study confirms that it is safe to use a ketogenic diet for a longer period of time than previously demonstrated.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC27167
48/


"It is generally believed that high fat diets may lead to the development of obesity and several other diseases such as coronary artery disease, diabetes and cancer. This view, however, is based on studies carried out in animals that were given a high fat diet rich in polyunsaturated fatty acids. In contrast, our laboratory has recently shown that a ketogenic diet modified the risk factors for heart disease in obese patients."

JERF - Just Eat Real Food

I'm not a doctor or dietitian. I'm just a real whole foods nutrition nerd.

I eat mostly vegetables, fats, meats, some fruit and dark chocolate. Unprocessed and preservative free food. And it's changed my life!

5'4"
Maintaining since 2012
42 years old
2 kids

Lowering my A1C and keeping my blood sugar levels steady eating LCHF.


 current weight: 130.0 
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NAYPOOIE's Photo NAYPOOIE Posts: 14,511
4/19/17 7:51 P

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I'm not trying to validate it, just pointing out that there are no studies demonstrating that it's a bad thing.

Also, the one year meat only diet was not wildlife, but domesticated meats.



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DIETITIANBECKY Posts: 28,261
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I must chime in again...
Are you "routinely" eating seal, walrus, and whale blubber?
How about caribou and moose?

If not, then you are not comparing apples to apples. Your "validation" for the long term safety of today's ketogenic diet is not supported by using the Inuit Diet from years ago. The eating plans are completely different.

Becky
Your SP Registered Dietitian Nutritionist



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Yes, it would be nice if we could have more data, although I fail to see how the age of the study is a problem. It's unlikely that humans have changed significantly since then. As for the 2009 review, the fact that long-term studies are lacking says nothing about the value of this study or the diet in question. Long-term studies on the safety of any other diet are also lacking, because this kind of study is expensive and infeasible. One year of closely monitored eating is about as good as it will ever get.

I suppose they did eat some carbs during the warmer months, as hunter-gatherers will generally eat anything that's available. I also suppose they still got the bulk of their calories from fat, because vegetation is not all that caloric.

It's possible that youth was a factor, but the Inuits ate this diet all their lives. There's no reason to make assumptions one way or the other.

I imagine that you're correct that testing procedures have improved since then. Still, by all things they could observe, the diet was a good thing, and there is no evidence to the contrary.

It would be nice to repeat the experiment for a longer period with a larger, more diverse set of subjects, but that's not going to happen. Just like there will be no long-term well-controlled studies on low-fat high-carb or vegan diets, the safety of which I find highly questionable.

As for the Inuit lifespan article, are they living on fish and seal, or bagels and cereal?



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LADYSTARWIND's Photo LADYSTARWIND Posts: 5,690
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That is somewhat intriguing... but I would prefer to read something that dates from more current "research" than that done in 1928 with results from two subjects, based on recollections from 1906-1918.... Especially when the article from 2009 reviewing it states: "Unsurprisingly and understandably, studies on the long-term effects of such a diet are severely lacking."

When looking into Steffanson's story (Wikipedia), I also read that he spent only one winter (1906-1907) with the Inuit, and later, about 4 years eating "off the land" while doing survey work. It also states that the Inuit eat only like that for 6-9 months during the winter. One has to assume then, that during the summer season their diet might shift to a higher carbohydrate based diet on natural plants, berries, kelp, etc. ??

I believe one also has to take into account the subjects' age... He was born in 1879, thus was in his 20's in 1906-1918, and in his 40's in 1928. Many of us could get away with different (and not necessarily long term healthy) diets earlier in our lives!

After a career in medical technology, I have to also call into question some of the 1928 medical observations...since accurate lab testing did not exist then. Many dietary conditions such as vitamin deficiencies, etc take a long time to develop obvious symptoms.... Kidney function tests were essentially non-existent, and we know that healthy adults have a great deal of reserve for kidney function before "symptoms" show up. So we don't know the measurable, long term effects on their health.

I agree the two didn't suffer greatly during their high fat/protein eating routine...for as long as they were observed doing so.. but that doesn't address the long term results of following a Keto Diet!
patti

PS this article (2008) discusses the Inuit Lifespan.... another eye-opener...! www.reuters.com/article/us-inuit-idUSN2362
426520080123


Edited by: LADYSTARWIND at: 4/19/2017 (14:31)
Patti
"The only thing we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."
Gandalf: Lord of the Rings


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NAYPOOIE's Photo NAYPOOIE Posts: 14,511
4/19/17 12:50 P

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www.sparkpeople.com/myspark/team_messagebo
ard_thread.asp?board=27560x482x56656285


That's a thread that has three links relevant to the experience.



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LADYSTARWIND's Photo LADYSTARWIND Posts: 5,690
4/18/17 10:09 P

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and the links to your research? You don't list any....!

I ask because I do have a friend in a remote coastal area of Canada who is working with some of the First Nation people to get them back to their historic eating habits to help ward off diabetes. Their traditional diet is certainly more varied than "fish and water" though!

The other thing to remember is that Genetics do not bless all the same.... What might work for you, might cause kidney problems for me...!!
patti

Patti
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