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MYREALANA's Photo MYREALANA SparkPoints: (0)
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7/17/13 12:32 P

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Another interesting point is that most European countries have a stand-your-ground principle in their legal code. Other than in England, there is no duty to retreat when confronted in any place you have a legal right to be.

However, they quite simply don't have as many guns on the streets, AND the laws require force to be met with proprtionate force. If someone throws a punch at you in Germany, you don't have the right to defend yourself with a gun.

Think about this - if, instead of a .44, George Zimmerman had done his neighbood watch patrol with a tazer, no one would ever have known his name.

--Myrea

"If you can't do something smart, do something right." --
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7/17/13 12:28 P

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And yes, I understand, Ziimerman's defense was not strictly a SYG defense, but a more classic "self-defense," but part of the Florida statute also makes a self-defense plea easier to use.

In most states, self-defence is an affirmative defense. This means that rather than the prosecution having to prove all aspects of the crime, the DEFENSE has the burden to prove by a "preponderance of the evidence" (lower standard than "beyond reasonable doubt") that the defendant had no choice but to protect their own life or person except by use of deadly force. In the same way, a defendent claiming legal insanity is under the burden to prove they were not culpable for the crime committed.

In Florida, it's NOT an affirmative defence. In Florida, it is up to the prosecution to prove each aspect of the crime, including that the defendent had no reason to fear for his life or safety at the time he pulled the trigger. Basically, an impossible task in a case where the defendent is the only living witness.

--Myrea

"If you can't do something smart, do something right." --
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7/17/13 12:07 P

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Val, in a country where everybody can have a gun, mainly under the reasoning of protecting themselves, people will shoot each other every time they feel they are in danger (that is why I do not have a gun).
---------
ITA, Willam.

According to the National Bureau of Economic Research:
www.nber.org/papers/w18187
Stand Your Ground laws account for 28-33 additional homicides PER MONTH in states that have them, and for a significant increase in emergency room visits for gun-related injuries.

Contrary to the NRA's stance, an armed society is NOT a polite society. A jack-wagon with a gun is still a jack-wagon - he just has more than bravado to back up his attitude.

--Myrea

"If you can't do something smart, do something right." --
Shepherd Book


COACHPENNY's Photo COACHPENNY Posts: 10,392
7/17/13 11:15 A

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Posted this link on the other thread...meant to post it on this one.

Wycliff:articles.chicagotribune.com/
20
13-07-16/opinion/ct-oped-0716-blindnes
s-20130716_1_george-zimmerman-trayvon-
martin-zimmerman-case




“A word to the wise ain't necessary, it's the stupid ones who need the advice.”

Bill Cosby


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CD833620 Posts: 42,077
7/17/13 9:08 A

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Val, in a country where everybody can have a gun, mainly under the reasoning of protecting themselves, people will shoot each other every time they feel they are in danger (that is why I do not have a gun).
Story time (picture it: Sicily, 1945.. LOL). In a bizarre case in Tampa, two men fought in a strip bar. So man A followed man B when he left the bar. After chasing him in high speed on the high way and man B calling 911, man A finally caught man B and shot him dead on I-4. Well, it happens that man A followed and killed the wrong guy. Well, well, where on earth people mix up strip club, alcohol and guns? End of story. No racial approach here.
Bridie, I think prosecution should have focused more on that aspect of the situation. I think they might have had a chance of conviction if they had emphasized the beginning of the event instead of the outcome of it.
Poeye, technicalities apart, Zimmerman was told to stay put and he did not. And that makes him quite quilt to me.
Popeye, yesterday I was trying to explain a co-worker the difference between being declared “not guilty” and being declared “innocent”. Zimmerman was not found innocent; the jury just did not have enough evidence to convict him. There is a big difference there.
After the veredict, I saw Pastor Jesse Jackson all over the news (Boy, he likes the camera) and I can’t help wondering, where he was when O.J. Simpson walked away with murder., or when Michael Jackson bought his way out child molestation.
Is there racism in the US? OMG! Yes! But it is a two way road.


COACHPENNY's Photo COACHPENNY Posts: 10,392
7/16/13 11:49 P

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I am posting a link to Chicago Tribune columnist, Eric Zorn's excellent op ed concerning George Zimmerman's acquittal and the misdirected outrage at the trial's outcome. The thing is, even though Zimmerman was not convicted....he is no innocent and he took a young man's life. On the other hand, there is no proof that he did so purposefully. Was he reckless? I think so, but Eric Zorn makes some really excellent points and calls the circumstances of the altercation and shooting, "murky".

Here are a few excerpts (read the whole thing if you get a chance, it's not too long):

******************

"There are a lot of things for civil rights activists — heck, for all decent people — to be outraged about when it comes to the issue of race in America.

Chronic poverty and high unemployment and incarceration rates among African-Americans, for instance. Substandard housing and educational opportunities for low-income minorities. The undeniable persistence of discrimination that makes these and other problems so stubborn.

But the acquittal of George Zimmerman isn’t one of them." ............

" Martin was taller and more athletic than the heavier Zimmerman, and a several-minute gap in the timeline established by telephone records suggested that Martin turned around, came back and sought out the final, fatal fight with Zimmerman who had broken off trying to follow Martin in the darkness.

Zimmerman’s wounds, while hardly horrific, further supported his account to police that he’d been losing that fight and was in fear that Martin was going to hurt him badly.

Did the timeline and the wounds prove the truth of this near textbook tale of self-defense? No. And I suspect Zimmerman embellished that tale — lied — in an attempt to improve it."...................

"Justice was done, if by justice we mean a fair and open trial at which jurors held prosecutors to their burden of proving guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

But if by justice we mean something else — payback for the unnecessary death of one young man and for generations of African-Americans unfairly shredded in the gears of law enforcement — then, no, justice was not done." .................

*************************

blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_column
is
ts_ezorn/2013/07/gz2.html


Edited by: COACHPENNY at: 7/16/2013 (23:49)


“A word to the wise ain't necessary, it's the stupid ones who need the advice.”

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4EVRYOUNG Posts: 5,174
7/16/13 10:32 P

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Pops, when the roles are reversed the family of the white victim usually get a prosecution or the defendant pleads out.

People of color seem to have to fight harder for "justice."

There isn't an NAWP because white people as a whole didn't suffer the tragic injustices, prejudices and bigotry that the black population did and still does.

Val

"If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got!
BRIDIE5 Posts: 8,121
7/16/13 9:23 P

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I'm aware it wouldn't be considered obstructing justice..and that dispatchers aren't police..neither is Zimmerman.

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7/16/13 8:14 P

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CoachPenny, your point is taken. However, I have seen where the roles were reversed there was no furor over they white person having been assaulted or killed. That's just not thought of as interesting enough by the MSM.

Where's the racial tension? There is no NAWP (National Association for White People) to raise heil or declare war. If there was, it would probably be on some government list as either subversive or terrorist related.

Bridie, lawmen and women can request anything they want. In most cases it is not a point of law, so obstruction doesn't apply. With the Zimmerman-Martin debacle, the request was made by a dispatcher. Most police dispatchers are civilians, not sworn peace officers.

We'll never know "for sure" exactly what went down that night. As for me, if I had been in either set of shoe's I would have heard, faintly in the background, "Danger Will Robinson. Danger Bob Clarkson, Danger!

Being alone in a darkened metropolitan area is much more menacing than walking along a trail through a jungle accompanied by multiple friends carrying multiple means of defense.

The older I get, the less I like it.

"A government big enough to give everything you want is also big enough to take everything you have."
-Ronald Reagan

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BRIDIE5 Posts: 8,121
7/16/13 2:28 P

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If one disregards police instructions and interferes against law enforcement's request, isn't that obstructing justice? An arrest, if any, would not have resulted in the death penalty in either case mentioned. Death wasn't justice.


Edited by: BRIDIE5 at: 7/16/2013 (14:32)
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4EVRYOUNG Posts: 5,174
7/16/13 2:19 P

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The "stand our ground" laws across the country differ from state to state. They seem to mis-apply it in many cases.

For example the guy here in Texas who phoned in a burglary at his neighbor's house to police and was instructed not to leave his house. Instead he disregarded the police's instructions, confronted the burglars and shot them in the back when the turned to run.

Because the neighbors told the Grand Jury that the guy was authorized by them to watch their house his lawyers were able to claim self defense by the "stand your ground law."

I firmly believe someone has the right to protect their person and their belongings, but when they have deliberately put themselves in harms way by defying police instruction they have lost their right to invoke the law.

After listening to the defense' arguments and the law of 2nd murder and manslaughter, the right verdict was reached. Laws don't account for the "gray area." Only juror emotions do that.

There should be some charge they can bring against Zimmerman(and those like him) for not following police instructions and that act resulted in the death of another person whether that person was a criminal or not.



Val

"If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got!
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7/16/13 1:57 P

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I doubt Stevie knows that William but who really knows.I guess he could.OJ finally did get some prision time and with his attitude will probably get more even the life in prision which he deserves.I believe Zimmerman will eventually pay in some way too both in this world or the next.Actually he is already paying to an extent afraid to go out on the street or to a club or pretty much everything public emoticon .

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CD833620 Posts: 42,077
7/16/13 11:38 A

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I just read online that Steve Wonder said he will not be playing in Florida till the stand your ground law is revoked. What is fine... But then he added that he would not play anywhere with such law. wonder (no pun intended) if he is aware that he just banned (almost) half of the country....

BRIDIE5 Posts: 8,121
7/15/13 8:32 P

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That's right, you did Penny. If roles were reversed, historically the black defendent is usually convicted..unless his name is OJ.

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COACHPENNY's Photo COACHPENNY Posts: 10,392
7/15/13 6:30 P

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Bridie and Myrea, that's the question I had in response to Popeye earlier in this thread. What if, the roles were reversed?



“A word to the wise ain't necessary, it's the stupid ones who need the advice.”

Bill Cosby


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CD833620 Posts: 42,077
7/15/13 4:53 P

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This link shows three cases where the self-defense "thing" did not work..... The woman's case is ridiculous!

thinkprogress.org/politics/2013/07/1
5/
2297541/self-defense-zimmerman/


BRIDIE5 Posts: 8,121
7/15/13 4:39 P

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Myrea, I think you know he wouldn't be free ..he'd be sentenced.

Let's not forget tho..this was not a stand your ground plea..

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MYREALANA's Photo MYREALANA SparkPoints: (0)
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7/15/13 1:39 P

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Here's something else a friend brought up.

If Trayvon Martin, feeling threatened by the man following him in the dark, had pulled out a gun and shot George Zimmerman dead, having a legal right to be on the public street where he was walking, and reasonably fearing for his life under the circumstances, what are the chances we would be talking about a "Not Guilty" verdict right now?

--Myrea

"If you can't do something smart, do something right." --
Shepherd Book


BRIDIE5 Posts: 8,121
7/15/13 12:11 P

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Common sense goes a long way..

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COACHPENNY's Photo COACHPENNY Posts: 10,392
7/15/13 11:26 A

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I missed that part, too.



“A word to the wise ain't necessary, it's the stupid ones who need the advice.”

Bill Cosby


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7/15/13 10:51 A

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Of course, we all remember Zimmerman's answer to Sean Hannity last summer as to whether he was sorry for killing Martin - "It was all God's plan."

I don't remember the "shoot your neighbor dead" part of The Bible.

--Myrea

"If you can't do something smart, do something right." --
Shepherd Book


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7/15/13 10:43 A

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I didn't follow the case closely, but from what I did see, the jury followed the law.

It's reasonable to think that a person in his circumstance thought he might be in danger.

I think he acted irresponsibly up to that point, but Florida law doesn't require a person to act reasonably to stay out of danger. A sensible person might not get out of their car and follow a suspected criminal when warned by the dispatcher that they shouldn't. But the law doesn't require a person to act sensibly.

Meanwhile, elsewhere in Florida, Marissa Alexander is serving 20 years for firing a warning shot at her abusive husband. Apparently, she should have just killed the SOB.

--Myrea

"If you can't do something smart, do something right." --
Shepherd Book


CD833620 Posts: 42,077
7/15/13 8:57 A

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Penny, He did get away with murder, but in Florida this is not such a difficult thing.

Popeye, surprisingly, I agree with your assessment of the situation, or most of it.

I do not get this thing that one aid by a person, but it is OK when said by another. It is just, for me, one more example of the double standards in the US.

Popeye, very rarely, black people killing white people make the news.

I do not think that how Martin looked like is relevant at all.


BRIDIE5 Posts: 8,121
7/15/13 8:23 A

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I too saw more current pics of Martin from many sources. Oh well. It should have been manslaughter at least IMHO. It was not so judged. Our sysptem is cracked..we know this. End of story.

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COACHPENNY's Photo COACHPENNY Posts: 10,392
7/15/13 3:03 A

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"Not once did I see, except on one of those unbelievable conservative web sites, what Treyvon looked like. He was not a fresh faced little boy. With the beard and his hoody, he could have been anywhere from 17 to 35. No one in the MSM ever spoke to how big the young man was, either."

Popeye, after the initial pictures of a younger Trayvon Martin went out over the news reports, numerous (non-conservative) news outlets showed more current and some would say, more ominous pictures of Martin. I'm not sure why you didn't see them...."not once".

I wonder, did those pictures (from your conservative news source) convince you that Martin was doing more than coming back from the quickmart? Did those pictures cause you to profile a 17 year old and convince you that he was a danger to the community? Would you have stalked him and refuse to stand down when told by the police to do so? Would you have forced a confrontation with this 17 year old and shot him dead when the confrontation turned to a struggle?

George Zimmerman did.

Edited by: COACHPENNY at: 7/15/2013 (03:04)


“A word to the wise ain't necessary, it's the stupid ones who need the advice.”

Bill Cosby


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POPEYETHETURTLE's Photo POPEYETHETURTLE SparkPoints: (408)
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7/15/13 1:30 A

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CoachPenny, For Murder to be on the table at all, I mean Murder in the 1st degree, the prosecution would have to have proved malicious intent. The prosecution did not have any evidence that Zimmerman had malicious intent or that he waited in ambush.

When you look at the whole thing, the fact that Zimmerman wasn't arrested until 44 (?) days after the incident, and then under Federal pressure to appoint a special prosecutor tells me that the Seminole County Prosecutor did not feel he had the proof to make a case, beyond a shadow of a doubt.

The only true "witness" was Zimmerman, and we know whose side he would take. The young lady who had been talking to Trayvon on the telephone did a great disservice to the prosecution with her sassy attitude to the defense attorney. Then, when the defense attorney started asking about the letter she had written for the police and she "couldn't read cursive". Her testimony before that had basically all been "hearsay", after that I don't think anyone would give her points for being aware of much at all.

When the prosecution brought up the lesser included charge of manslaughter to second degree murder, it seemed a signal that even they didn't think they had made their case and were throwing something up on the wall to see if it would stick.

A tactic the the MSM used throughout the trial was to show multiple pictures of Treyvon as a young boy and at special occasions where he was dressed neatly. Not once did I see, except on one of those unbelievable conservative web sites, what Treyvon looked like. He was not a fresh faced little boy. With the beard and his hoody, he could have been anywhere from 17 to 35. No one in the MSM ever spoke to how big the young man was, either.

I thought that the prosecution really went after the sympathy card when they had Treyvon's mother on the stand. The emotions ran really high. But then the defense put Zimmerman's mother on the stand and it became very clear, it wasn't white on black we were dealing with, it was Black on Latino. Everything that Trevon's mother claimed, such as being able to identify the scream on the phone, was countered by Mrs. Zimmerman.

There were no witnesses to the confrontation, and from the investigation no evidence was found that the prosecution could use. The young lady who had the phone conversation with Trayvon, her testimony was all here say and couldn't be substantiated by evidence on the ground. The jury had no other legal choice but to acquit.

Something that struck me during the trial, as it evidently did the defense attorney, is that "cracker" isn't considered by a Black person to be a racial epithet. Some liberals I know refer to someone as a "cracker", and it's definitely a pejorative, but because it is said from one person of a race to another person of the same race, it's racially neutral.

Used inter-racially, I've always considered "cracker" to be a racial word.

In other news this weekend, two 13 y/o black boys shot a 10 y/o white girl in the face, killing her. No particular notice of this case has graced the front page on any major newspaper.

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COACHPENNY's Photo COACHPENNY Posts: 10,392
7/14/13 11:13 P

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No, he could not use the stand your ground defense and they didn't have enough evidence to convince the jury to convict Zimmerman of stalking and killing the Martin. I wish they could have found SOMETHING. He had no business continuing to follow the kid.

It makes me wonder what would have happened if the kid had gotten a hold of the gun in the struggle and killed Zimmerman.....would it have been considered self-defense? I think Zimmerman got away with murder.



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SHIRLEY721's Photo SHIRLEY721 SparkPoints: (0)
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7/14/13 1:13 P

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I'm not surprised.By the way William I do guess you understood what I explained about the inner cities.By the way quiet a few nice folk there too like the man who apologized for the man who spoke rudely about the butter. emoticon

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CD833620 Posts: 42,077
7/14/13 12:38 P

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Shirley, Zimmerman is way ahead of you.. LOL SInce the night of the killing, he has never been back to his house. He lives, mostly, hidden.

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7/14/13 11:15 A

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Well he was found not guilty but if I were he I would have been packed before hand and already gone.All blacks don't obey the law either and if he doesn't go a long way away anything could happen.Everyone I've spoken too even those here in IN.think he shot him because of his race.There are many prejudiced people in all races.Anyone in law enforcement even volunteer should have a pschological test to determine if they are prejudiced before they are accepted.IMHO

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CD833620 Posts: 42,077
7/14/13 10:45 A

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Bridie, since i live in the area, it would be impossible not to follow the trial. there was nothing else in the local channel.

He did not use the "stand your ground" claim just because he could not. After all, he followed the young man. It would be a very difficult and tricky thing to prove and make it fly.

He claimed self-defense. And let me tell you that the technicality that makes one different from the other escapes me.

Well, and I am telling just what was shown on TV, not necessarily what I believe in (before people jump on my neck because of what I am saying next), What the defense claimed was that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman by punching him on the face and then hitting his head on the pavement. what, as the results show, was enough to grant him a self-defense acquittal.

BRIDIE5 Posts: 8,121
7/14/13 10:11 A

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I haven't been following the details obviously Willam, as since there had initially been talk of using that statute I thought he had. Thanks for the clarification! I hate reality TV so didn't watch any of the trial What did he actually plead? Was it a self defense claim? From what?

Edited by: BRIDIE5 at: 7/14/2013 (10:12)
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CD833620 Posts: 42,077
7/14/13 7:42 A

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As I expected he was found not guilty..... and Yes Bridie, the "stand your ground" law in Florida is highly adjustable. It is one of the most stupid laws I have ever heard of. Basically, in Florida, you can kill anyone and get away with it.

But Zimmerman did not claim the stand your ground law.

BRIDIE5 Posts: 8,121
7/14/13 12:37 A

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As we all know by now, Zimmerman was acquitted under "stand your ground". Meanwhile, a woman who "stood her ground" and fired a shot in the air (not at anyone, and nobody was hurt) during domestic violence received a twenty year sentence. Both in Florida. Go figure. Maybe their "stand your ground" rules are adjustable?

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COACHPENNY's Photo COACHPENNY Posts: 10,392
7/13/13 8:23 P

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That's not right and it's very frustrating when the responsible parties are not caught. It's sad that a volunteer died, but I just don't see why he was chasing them. What was he going to do if he caught them? The same with Zimmerman and he was told by the police dispatch not to follow Martin. Again what did Zimmerman intend to do when he caught him? Volunteer security and citizen's watch volunteers should not be doing police work. They should stay at a safe distance and call police. That's hard to do when you feel your property is threatened....in the case of Martin there is no evidence that he was doing anything more than coming home from the store. The fact remains that Zimmerman jumped to the conclusion that Martin was up to no good. If he had listened to the police, he would not be on trial. Honestly, I think he has to face the consequences and I hope they find him guilty of at least manslaughter.



“A word to the wise ain't necessary, it's the stupid ones who need the advice.”

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FORESTPAL's Photo FORESTPAL Posts: 1,395
7/13/13 7:21 P

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It saddens me for both sides. I live in a development with volunteers. We had a rash of stupid breakins of weekender cabins, where contents were ransacked, and perps had parties with whatever boose they foumd. They also messed up our club house (tore room air conditioner out, etc) did truck spins in wet ground, leaving such gouges that it couldn't be mowed; constantly drove too fast,etc. One of our volunteer security had a heart attack chasing them one evening and died on the spot. No race complications, but so sad.

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CD833620 Posts: 42,077
7/13/13 4:55 P

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Val is correct. If the law is followed, he will be found not guilty.

If he is or not guilty is beyond the point. There is not enough evidence to convict him of anything.

But, again, after Casey Anthony, O.J. Simpson and Michael Jackson results, I will not be surprised by any result. Just disappointed.

4EVRYOUNG Posts: 5,174
7/13/13 4:30 P

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I listened to Dan Abrams on ABC's "Good Morning America" this morning and he said that if the jury followed the letter of the law they would find Zimmerman not guilty. That prosecutors hadn't proved beyond a reasonable doubt.

He claims that "in the moment" Zimmerman acted in self defense. That may be true but the law is not black and white. What is the definition of "in the moment?" To me "the moment" is more than "he threw a punch, I was scared so I shot him."

As I've said before the recent popularity of CSI type programs it is almost impossible to present a case that "proves beyond a reasonable doubt" without admission of guilt.

The defense decided not to use the "Stand Your Ground" defense because it was obvious that if Zimmerman had, he would have been in or nearby his truck when Martin was shot.

After the Casey Anthony verdict nothing would surprise me.

Val

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7/13/13 4:13 P

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I'm posting this before the jury has reached a verdict in the Zimmerman trial.

I've watched the trial off and on, and it has been a quite a great boxing match between the two lead attorneys, both having delivered some very solid blows to the others argument.

How do y'all see this winding up? Guilty? Not Guilty? Partially Guilty (Manslaughter)?

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